Anarchy Gumbo Podcast

Nifty anarchist chat and chatter from Michael W. Dean and a rotating cast of insomniac guests

Stefan Molyneux Freaks Out on the Gumbo

Stefan Molyneux has 43 cups of double espresso and then talks with Michael W. Dean about anarchy, guns, leftie anarchists, Hunger Games, homeschooling, the Canadian health care system, BDSM and kink, border crossings, recording gear, Boston T. Party, and a whole bunch of other nifty stuff.

At one point, Stefan gets madder than I’ve ever heard him and cusses a bunch at the lunacy of the world. It’s a beautiful thing.

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27 thoughts on “Stefan Molyneux Freaks Out on the Gumbo

  1. I was very interested to hear the comments that were made about BDSM and its relation to our philosophy- one thing I think should be noted, I know that it was a whole year ago but I think that the comment about therapy has been misinterpreted. The first time I heard this I thought, as many here and elsewhere have expressed, that he was refering to going to therapy for the ‘deviant’ behavior. But recently I re-listened to the podcast and when I got over my initial displeasure with the comment I realized it could be taken a completly different way- and in a way that is more likely for stef than how I originally took it.

    What if the therapy comment “what have you done with this experience, have you seen a therapist?” was actually in reference to the sexual abuse that was talked about not 10 seconds before. I think that this would make a lot more sense in relation to stefan’s view and what he typically says but naturally I don’t claim to speak for him.

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  3. MichaelWDean on said:

    got this from a stranger today:
    Hi Michael, I enjoyed listening to your interview with Stefan Molyneux and the discussion about BDSM. Recently, I was listening to a Red Ice Radio interview with Stefan (link here http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2012/04/RIR-120422.php ) in which Stefan speaks about the non aggression principle and spanking children….he then includes an exception about spanking among consenting adults followed by a little chuckle (13:24 to 13:30 Just in case you don’t want to listen to the whole interview). I think Stefan included that exception as a result of your conversation.
    Bravo Michael!
    Lisa

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  5. MichaelWDean on said:

    “studies have shown”

    I agree, Paul. That doesn’t always work for me either. Yeah, it has some basis, but has also been used to sell everything from taxation to anti-smoking laws to the War on Drugs to invading Iraq.

    MWD

  6. Paul Bonneau on said:

    I agree with the comments xearther made above. However Stef still makes a lot of sense, working on the demand side. The race between anarchy and the state will end when the engine driving the state explodes, not when some imaginary finish line is crossed. When that happens, those dependent on the state will be faced with choices because they can no longer go on as before. Some, particularly if they have had some exposure to ideas such as Stef’s demand-side arguments, will choose right. Others of them will choose wrong. Then we may discover some use for these battle rifles after all (I remain amazed at Stef’s reluctance to honestly address firearms – a technology every bit as important to liberty as the internet – but hey, nobody’s perfect).

    On the BDSM thing, I actually took Stef’s comment about therapy as suggesting a way to “correct” that tendency. Maybe I should go re-listen to verify that. But anyway Stef has this thing he gets into, of more respect for the “studies have shown” thing than it really warrants (as if science is not as subject to the same foibles as the rest of human experience). Usually he throws that at one during discussions of parent-child relationships, but here he did it for BDSM.

    I do think he is improving though. His early stuff was often annoying to listen to but now he seems a bit more forgiving of behavior that he does not agree with. Tolerance (in its classical sense) always improves a person.

  7. Just keep pushing forward.

  8. MichaelWDean on said:

    Mike, I disagree on the “choice” part. BDSM is hard wired in some people. I have less of a choice in tending that way than I have a choice in gay-straight matters. Because I’m bi, but married to a woman and monogamous.

  9. Mike DeLuna on said:

    Here are my thoughts on the exchange:

    1. I don’t care what people do in their relationships as long as it’s voluntary. And just because it’s not a lifestyle for me doesn’t make me think any less of people who engage in it.

    2. I agree with Kyle, the therapy question was in relation to the sexual molestation, so he wasn’t saying being into kink = needing therapy. I’m glad he was open to being corrected about the lifestyle and I think you changed his mind at the end. Good job for standing your ground.

    3. Him raising the question was should not be construed as offensive if you’re using the substitution of gay with BSDM. Being homosexual has a simple definition, whereas being into BSDM, correct me if I am wrong, has a very wide definition. And perhaps there is behavior that occurs under the kink umbrella that goes too far even for you, which could have clear connections to childhood trauma for those who practice it. Also, they differ in that one is not a choice while the other is. I think a better comparison would be drugs.

  10. MichaelWDean on said:

    Kyle, yup. It was a very odd moment for me. I think of Stef as one of the most logical people I’ve encountered, and that one fallacy (kink = being damaged and/or needing therapy) really took me off guard.

    He was making a judgment based on nothing. Except maybe Hollywood movies. (Thus all the “gimp” jokes.) And/or current psychotherapy, which as I said, called homosexuality a disease well into my lifetime. (Though psychotherapy sort of considers EVERYTHING a disease, including being an anarchist…..look up “Oppositional Defiant Disorder.”
    http://www.behavenet.com/oppositional-defiant-disorder
    )

    Psychotherapy also sometimes considers liking weed, liking guns or spending a lot of time on the Internet symptomatic of disorders.

    Asking someone who puts deep credence in psychology if you need therapy is like asking the barber if you need a haircut.

    Stef’s “Tell me about your childhood” query really took me aback, because I felt like he’d suddenly shifted the conversation into a therapist/patient interaction without my permission. Though the content of that query didn’t surprise me, because it’s such a rote response to people finding out you’re into kink. Thus my cranky response, “I KNEW you’d fucking ask me about that.”

    My self-identity as a practitioner of kink is as strong as a gay man’s self-identity that he’s gay. Substitute “gay” for “S&M” in what Stef said and it’s a wonder I was as calm as I was. Many people would likely reply to that with “Well, that substitution is making him say something he didn’t say.” But honestly, to many people who practice kink, IT’S WHO WE ARE. I had inklings of it in very early childhood. I did way before I was molested. My wife had the inklings of it at age five, and she was never abused. It’s hard-wired. It’s not destructive, and it’s as much of a part of us as anything.

    MWD

    • Too bad you hadn’t heard the nickname prior. You could have asked him “Is this why people call you ‘Holy Moly’?”

      I like Stef a lot, but he seems to have only one model of human psychology: abusive or not-quite-abusive-but-still-kind-of-oppressive parents. And he reverts to it in a way that’s not strictly moralistic, but takes on a lot of the habits of moralistic, holier-than-thou arguments. And he extends that crabbed psychological model to socio-politics.

      Whatever the source, he does have some really, really good insights otherwise.

      • MichaelWDean on said:

        Holy Moly. lol. Actually the only “I wish I’d said this….” thought I had later was when I talked about sexuality in cats and Stef made the fairly brilliant observational pun, “But you don’t bathe by licking yourself.”

        I later wish I’d thought to say “You don’t know what my sex life consists of.”

        My wife and I mew a lot.

    • Oh, yeah, I noticed his making stereotype jokes as an attempt to defuse the tension.

      First rule of holes, Stef.

  11. I took the therapy comment as referring to the childhood molestation, not the current sexual preferences. I was waiting for him to raise that defense, but seeing them as two sides of the same coin is probably why he couldn’t formulate that defense. Or, if he did in his head, the cognitive dissonance must have paralyzed him.

  12. bruce on said:

    First of all Stefan did a great job, I really liked the part around 38:00 talking about relationships.
    It was also interesting where I think Michael might have got Stefan thinking about how he might be wrong about non traditional sexuality. I haven’t seen this happen much, Michael Dean, you should be proud of that!

  13. I appreciate the insight Stef presented in addressing “demand” rather than “supply” in order to effect long term change.

    But that approach is unrealistically long term. For the Ponzi scheme will run it’s course before the State addicts have a “change of heart”. So in the end, whether you consider it the best approach or not, supply will end and the addicts will have no choice but to go “cold turkey”.

    Besides, you just can’t ignore the enabling supply set up to lure and reassure those who intend to purposefully become dependent on the State, knowing their x children without a father in the house will be feed, housed, and “educated” (along with mom).

    Stef knows the State WANTS this to continue for the purpose of CONTROL They will do whatever it takes to perpetuate the model of dependence. So to focus on supply and say you just “can’t cut them off” is to imagine a hopeful scenario of changing minds that just is not going to happen. They want something for nothing (their “fair share”). And if the State is going to give it to them there is no way they are going to not take it.

    Austrian economics will play out as surely as an apple dropping from a tree. The question is will the removal of supply occur abruptly because of financial collapse or will there be at least an attempt at a controlled withdrawal of supply while the pain of unmet demand is minimized and serviced by volunteer efforts.

    Because a majority of the populations in both Canada and the U.S. are so addicted to the State it is hard to imagine any outcome other than the former: financial collapse brought on by hyperinflation that is further inspired by a rejection of the US Dollar as the “reserve currency”. Further more, it will be impossible to hide the magician’s tens of trillions of worthless Dollars created out of thin air just this year.

    Any follower of Austrian economics will tell you the discipline does not answer the question of, “When?”. But because of the accelerating catalyst of the Internet it is hard to imagine the inevitable not occurring this year with the People finally ending the Game and admitting the paper in their wallets and purses is WORTHLESS.

    And what of the fate of those who “demand”? You will find them first in line to get a FEMA barcode on their foreheads.

  14. MichaelWDean on said:

    Thanks, Andre. That’s kind of my goal with this podcast….talking with people who are really good, but trying to take them in directions slightly away from where they usually go.

    Next two guests are Scott Horton from Anti-War Radio, and then Stephanie Murphy from Free Talk Live and Porc Therapy.

    MWD

    • Scott Horton ruined my life by introducing me to Austrian Economics on his AntiWar Radio show. Which ended up turning me into a Peacenik Non-Aggression Principled Anarcho-Capitalist. Now NOBODY understands me anymore.
      The bastard.

      Okay, it’s true, I love the guy. :)

  15. I’ve heard a lot of interviews where Stefan is interviewed and I have to say, hands down, this was the best I’ve heard so far.
    Stef was on fire, but I think you brought that out in him Michael.

    Well done!

  16. MichaelWDean on said:

    lol. Yup. It was a fun show. And I did rather enjoy that moment.

    Saying to me that BDSM is a bad thing is going to elicit the same type of response one would get from you if someone said “Without the government, all children would starve and there would be no roads.”

    It’s exactly as unfounded as that. Actually more unfounded, because our thoughts on anarchy are based largely on theory, whereas my thoughts on BDSM are based on decades of personal experience and on talking to scores of other people with decades of personal experience.

    MWD

  17. Holy Cow. MWD left Stef speechless on the BDSM thing.
    Well paint me blue and spank me pink! Now I have heard everything.
    Well done, both of you. I really enjoyed the podcast.
    Ben

  18. Mike DeLuna on said:

    Hell yeah!

  19. Awesome podcast. Stefan is always great to listen to.

  20. MichaelWDean on said:

    BDSM RECOMMENDED READING LIST, as promised to Stefan in the part that starts 58 minutes, 25 seconds into the conversation.
    This is a sticky comment, no pun intended. It’s just set to stay as the first comment.

    SM 101: A Realistic Introduction (Kindle Edition)
    Jay Wiseman. Greenery Press, 1998.

    The Loving Dominant (Kindle Edition)
    John Warren, Ph.d. Greenery Press, 2000.

    Diary of an S&M Romance (Paperback)
    Dollie Llama and ThornDaddy (Michael’s wife and Michael).
    PEEP! Press, 2006.
    This book is our own personal journey. Included on our list not just because we wrote it, but because the book is respected in “the community.”

    The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities (Paperback)
    Dossie Easton, Catherine A. Liszt. Greenery Press, 1998

    Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns: The Romance and Sexual Sorcery of Sadomasochism (Paperback)
    Philip Miller, Molly Devon. Mystic Rose Books, 1988.

    When Someone You Love Is Kinky (Kindle Edition)
    Dossie Easton, Catherine A. Liszt. Greenery Press, 2000.

    Also: There’s a longer list of good BDSM books (including Diary of an S&M Romance), as recommended by the staff of Bondage.com, here:
    http://dir.bondage.com/cat/22/dir.html

    • NinKenDo on said:

      Hmmm, wow, looks interesting. Not even remotely interested in “the lifestyle” for myself. It really doesn’t do much for me.

      But I’m in a lot of ways, these books just seem like a really great way to understand how to have a truly OPEN and truly SATISFYING relationship with your lover.

      I’m thinking I’ll pick up ‘S&M Romance’ and ‘When Someone You Love’. They sound pretty good.

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